Yesterday, Elevation Church gave us 10% of their offering to go toward our church planting center… Pastor Steven explained that since they have not yet formulated their international planting strategy, they wanted to participate in ours. I was struck by a phrase he used, "Churches often compete with each other; they should complete each other!" Well said, my friend.
We are grateful for the generosity of Elevation. Pastor Steven had me preaching there yesterday on "How is Fair that People Who have Never Heard about Jesus Go to Hell?" Talk about setting me up for failure. I told him, "When you preached at my church, I had you preach on faith and vision and get everyone excited. You give me a topic that is the equivalent of going to a homeschool convention and preaching against big families.
It was well-received. It is a tough topic, and I hope I magnified the staggering nature of God's grace in it… the true mystery is not that any of us are condemned, but that any of us are saved. After all, what will amaze us as we look backwards from eternity is not the severity of God's judgment, but the greatness of His mercy.
What really seems unfair to me is that those of us who have partaken of this undeserved, overwhelming grace would not, in response, pour out our lives to take the Gospel to those who have yet to hear.
I don’t necessarily believe that all people who have never heard of Jesus get tortured, burnt alive, by God for ever and ever. Am I wrong?
I know that there is salvation through faith in Christ. And I know Christ is the only way to the Father. However, we should not only proclaim what we know but also what we don’t know. Perhaps there are other ways salvation comes through Christ other then overtly declared faith in Him.
The parable of the sheep and the goats doesn’t mention faith, just love. FN1. Also, many verses refer to loving one’s neighbor as covering over sin and fulfilling the law. FN2. There is a lot we don’t know, including the depth of mercy of the man who uttered these words as they tortured Him to death… “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.”
God doesn’t need us to declare the gospel in order for Him to save people. He simply invites us to come along for the ride. That’s the way I see it.
FN1 – Matthew 25:31-46
FN2 – Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8, Romans 13:10, James 2:8, Proverbs 10:12, 1 Peter 4:8
I am so thankful for our partnership with so many churches in RDU and beyond in the advancement of the gospel. Thank you so much Pastor Steven for Elevation’s gift of generousity. We love and appreciate you guys.
Along4the ride, great question. I obviously can’t answer all of it here… I’d suggest you get the book “Cross of Christ” by JRW Stott, as he walks through these passages one by one.
Romans 10:13-17 is key here… “Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved… and how shall they call on the one in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?” Paul’s logic leaves no room for alternate ways of salvation that comes through the preached word of God’s messengers. Heb 11:6 says without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God,and faith comes only by hearing the word of God (Rom 10:17).
It is, as the Peter and John first testified, that “truly there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.”
Along4TheRide: (nice posting name–I hope you are enjoying the ride and that unlike some on CS Lewis’ described ride, you don’t decide to get on the return bus–I’m the guy in the back of the bus, cutting up, inciting others to do things a little bit on the outlandish side, to the point of the chaperones [JD and the pastors up front] to yell back, “Don’t make me come back there!” Anyway, feel free to come on back and sit near me, I love a great discussion.
You have made good points.
One, your visualization of hell is fire. Another great Christian described hell as the sensation of falling. That reminds me of the first time I rode the “Drop Zone” ride. Being the daring kind of guy *and* an engineer, I strapped myself in with about an inch or two of slackness in the harness–hey, there’s no way to slip out, and a competent ride engineer would have left 20-30% MINIMUM margin in the design, I reasoned. So don’t worry, I’m ok. At the point of the drop, my butt (my wife would more accurately say my brains) came off of the seat about half of that inch or two. The net result was that I had no part of the ride actually touching my body/clothes during the drop duration–a complete free fall. (If my jaw wasn’t clenched shut, I’m sure a bystander would have thought that I suddenly learned how to speak in tongues: AAAAIIEEEEE!!!) A three-second drop with no sensory input, but to me, it was enough of an eternal hell. I now ride the Drop Zone with the harness compressing me to about 75% of my normal volume–as I figure the Master Engineer has designed me to handle compression to about 80% of my size. (If somebody ever designs a drop zone IN THE DARK, I think I’ll go join an ascetic monastery where they don’t let the monks out…ever.)
Anyway, my primary point of the visualization of hell, is not that people are going there. If I dwell on that perspective, I start to justify the folks I think who deserve to be there. The next thing I know, I am “making myself like the Most High.” I break the First Commandment by deifying myself. My primary point of the visualization of hell is recognizing that *I* should deserve that eternity and it is by pure Grace I am not and will not. The recognition is irrespective of even the existence of other folks and independent of any [fallacious] comparisons to them.
And flowing from my recognition of that grace should be a response of trying to prevent others from experiencing that eternity, not castigating nor cursing nor questioning the One who allows for such a hell. Alas, much to my Savior’s [and pastors'] chagrin, I return to breaking that First Commandment, and either elevate myself again and deem some “worthy of hell” or through “indifference” allow many to walk ignorantly into such a “destiny.” If I were to really get a picture of hell, and true picture of how much grace I’ve been given, I probably would be diving headfirst into hell and dragging people out of there continuously, 24-by-7.
In reference to the sheep and goats parable, please keep in mind the general warning that not all details (and omissions) in a parable have spiritual significance. While I have enjoyed many a sermon which has dissected a parable down to cultural norms and drawn parallels to the spiritual realm, I understand that those parallels are a human interpretation and may not be “truly God’s Word.” Thus, we need to be careful how we read parables (and any form of poetic language). For instance, does the parable of the 10 coins (Luke 15:8) imply that only 10% of the people are lost? Or does the passage four verses early about the 100 sheep state that only 1% are lost? Do we have contradiction here? No, the details of the numbers and exact ratios are not significant, what is significant (and the pedagogical intent) is the depths to which God as personified by the woman or the shepherd will go to seek out that whom is lost.
However, the part of your posting which disturbs me is the ramification of “perhaps salvation.. comes through…other than overtly declared faith in Him.” I see three very dangerous paths that lead from that opening.
First, it opens up the possibility of, for lack of a better term, “non-Christian salvation by using Christian terms.” I think in the old days (just before I was born–when TVs came in two colors: black and white), this was called heresy. I lost count of the number of times I heard strange stuff folks said during my two years in southern California. “Christian terms” were redefined. Faith in Christ was then silently discarded and then other “Christian sounding” concepts were elevated: “have the Christ spirit,” “just love” [Love what? Was it okay to love self-aggrandizement and thievery?], and “obey your purpose.” But nothing about His or our sacrifice, because faith in His work is no longer necessary.
Second, it demeans the work of Christ. If there are other ways to salvation other His death, then His death was unnecessary. (And if Jesus’ death were unnecessary, then it would be valid to charge God with “heavenly child abuse,” as one theologian who will remain nameless has posited.) God Himself dying was required, as no other could effect a payment for any human let alone for others. To deny or diminish this act is borderline blasphemy (the act of denying one of God’s attributes). [Please note: I'm not saying that you wrote or implied this--you didn't--I'm just pointing out the hazards that are nearby.] Multiple salvational paths play beautifully along in our postmodern world: person X can use salvational path X, while person Y can use path Y; meanwhile, I get to use the opposite of X or Y or…
Third, it falsely tells humans that to disobey is okay. Disobedience? How did I come up with that one? John 3:14,15 tells us “the Son of Man must be lifted up that whoever believes may in Him have eternal life.” But what is most interesting is the first part of verse 14: “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness…”
If we take a look at Numbers 21, which has that account (vv.4-9), we see that the Israelites are being fatally bitten by serpents. Their salvation, Moses is told, takes two parts. Moses makes an image of the serpent; but the second part is that the person who was bitten has to look to the image.
In the same way that Moses obediently fashions the image of the destroying serpent, Jesus obeys the Father and dies on the cross, which is the image of death and sin’s punishment (cf. Galatians 3:13–”Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree.”). Both are the salvation presented (to Israel in Numbers,to mankind in John’s Gospel).
But that is not sufficient. If an Israelite were bitten but did not look to the image of the serpent, he would die. He had to look. Just knowing that the serpent’s image existed was not enough. Knowing which direction in which to look was also insufficient. Obedience was not evident until the person performed the exact act of “looking at the image”–only at that point was salvation effected and completed in the Israelite. In the same way, intellectually knowing that Jesus is my ransom is not enough. It is not enough to know how to “claim the faith.” One must exhibit that faith and demonstrate that obedience for His salvation-gift to be effected and completed in us.
Again, I’m not saying your post is blasphemous, heretical, or bad. I’m merely pointing out that there are hazards which lie not too far away. And furthermore, most (“what, Lord…ALL?”…okay) of what I’ve pointed out here is in reality a shaking finger pointed right at myself, at the very disobedient and lazy heart of mine. In a sense, I’m thankful that your post has pointed out my errors.
So, I thank you for also reading what I’ve written in this long post. I have enjoyed reading what you wrote. “Come on to the back of the bus” where I am and we can have more great conversations (until the chaperones tell us to cut it out).
Yours in Christ,
yucko
[All references NAS.]
Pastor JD: I’m from Raleigh, I went to the “God Has A Better Way” event in downtown Charlotte Saturday where we witnessed and prayed at the Gay Pride event there. Staying with a brother in Charlotte, he brought me to Elevation (my first time), which is his church, on Sunday. The worship service was WAY over the top for me, at 54 years old, I like a little more (a lot more) traditional approach to worship. I was worried about a godly sermon that could possibly follow that raucous pounding opening. I have to tell you, going to a conservative Baptist church in Cary, I attend seminary and study at the feet of men like Charles Ryrie. Your sermon was Right On! You nailed it with every word. I was so elated. The sermon made me jump and shout in my soul as you did not hold back one single stitch from the pure bold word of God. I am so full of joy that I and the young men and women in that audience experienced your passion and no holds barred truth. I know you don’t need my thanks, but I thank you anyway for not joining the culture in watering the fire that is in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I would sit at your feet anytime (as soon as worship is over
.
Yucko,
You say it demeans the work of Christ if there are ways to salvation other then His death. However, notice I did not say there may be other ways to salvation besides Christ’s death. I said it may not be necessary to hear Him preached to be saved through His death. Do you see the difference? Perhaps I was unclear, so I wrote Mr. Greear one more post you may want to see below.
Also, you are right that “non-Christian salvation” has been called heresy in the “old days”. But then again, so has the doctrine of the symbolic presence and many other evangelical Christian beliefs. Just because something is ingrained in old traditions does not make it right. We must consider our roots. If we are protestant, then historically speaking we are reformed Catholics. These traditions you rely on no doubt stem back to the Roman Catholic Church’s doctrines about salvation being only through the Catholic Church. We shouldn’t be afraid to toss that crap aside and rely on Scripture alone. In what I’ve said here, I’m perfectly in line with Scripture.
Mr. Greear,
Thank you for the book reference. I’ll check it out. I agree that there is no other name under heaven whereby men must be saved. However, there must be ways to be saved through His name without knowing His literal name. For instance, Old Testament believers did not know of Jesus Christ and yet were saved through Him.
As to Romans 10:14, Paul’s logic does have plenty of room in it for ways to salvation other then overtly hearing about Jesus Christ. “All who jump into a pool of water get wet” doesn’t mean there aren’t other ways to get wet through water, such as standing in the rain. Therefore, “all who call on Christ after hearing a preacher get saved” does not mean there aren’t other ways to get saved through Him also.
Regarding Hebrews 11:6, “faith” there does not seem to be referring only to faith in the detailed Christian message we are familiar with. Hebrews says the faith of Enoch was sufficient (a man who had never heard of Christ). Hebrews 11:6 even defines what it means by “faith” somewhat, continuing by saying “because anyone who comes to God must believe that he exists.” That is a very basic faith. One can certainly believe God exists without ever hearing the gospel preached. “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made…” (Romans 1). Who is to say the natural revelation about God that is clear enough to condemn us is not also clear enough to save us when coupled with love which is greater then both faith and hope?